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wote 820 ( +1 | -1 )
Cheating! From Message
wote

1/08/2007
22:36:40
[ report this post ] Subject: Team Rules

Message:
How many of you Captains use some of all of these team rules?

1) They time out without providing a good reasons.
2) They insult either other members of the team, or their opponents (if you have a grievance with an opposing player, please let me know and I will speak with the opposing captain to sort out).
3) Persons with dual accounts will not be accepted.
And will be removed for the Team.
4) Anyone caught using a Chess Program will also be removed from the team.



eqj2

1/09/2007
13:50:19
[ report this post ]

Message:
I use #1, #2 and #3 I will never tolerate anyone that does not obey rule #2. Rule #1 if they time-out and they don't contact me the first day when they come back I try to send another message to them again and no response then I get the ax out its kind of messy but it happens. =) Cheers Eddie captain of the Chess Players of the World


wote

1/09/2007
18:58:34
[ report this post ]

Message:
Thanks for your reply; and what do you think about rule #4?


muppyman

1/09/2007
20:36:25
[ report this post ] Chess programs are forbidden.

Message:
On this site anyone caught using one during a game should not only be thrown out of a team, but also reported to admin(with the proof of course) so they can face possible expulsion from GK. Using a program during a game here is nothing more nor less than cheating and there is no room on this site for cheats.


silhouet2003

1/10/2007
16:24:17
[ report this post ] chess programs

Message:

do you really believe that most of the 2000+ rated players don't use a program?
I think that we are from another planet if we don't accept that fact....why is there only a reaction from low rated players on this forum?



wote

1/10/2007
18:26:19
[ report this post ]

Message:
do you really believe that most of the 2000+ rated players don't use a program? LOL i'm sure many do!
My artical in progress!
=======================
As many of you know ďUmakant SharmaĒ was caught using a Blue Tooth device to relay chess moves to his counterparts. But it was not a just a random check that lead to the discovery of the cheater being caught. It was his fast climb in his chess rating that gave him away. Over 18 months he climbed to a grand master level, and other chess players suspected he was cheating. Why did the other players think this you mite ask? Well that is easy. Most chess players in the chess world know each other and have played each other many times for years, some times decades. And when some new guy comes along and cleans up on the chess board, people start to talk about it. The same could be true for a internet chess site. But the problem is that they start everybody off at the same rating. They do not ask if you have ever played chess before. They do not ask if you have every obtained a chess rating. Most organizations will ask, and if you say no, and then proceed to win games above a beginnerís level they will investigate the matter. Most people new to chess, even if they played a bit of chess at a younger age, or causal chess form time to time, will not obtain a ELO chess rating above 1600 - in there 1st year. Very few players will obtain an ELO rating above 1800 in their 1st year. The rating system is mathematical, and has been used to rate players since the early 1970ís The system can even be used in retrograde to get the rating performance of players as far back as records will aloud.
It should be easy to spot cheaters on web sites. All the web sites need to do is implement a few old rules, and ask the same questions the USCF, FIDE and the CFC ask, when a new player is signed up. A real quick way of spotting cheaters is to do a quick audit of there chess rating. ( win % - lost % + draw % x maximum rated player(in the rating system they are in) / played games = rating gain per game. Exp: 60% Ė 30% + 10% x 2500 / 525 = 1.9 points per games ( a rating of 1000 ) It can take any where from 10 or 20 years to become a master and even longer to become a grand master at chess, and anyone with a rating over 2400 should be playing in FIDE and local tournaments almost once a week. Miron Sher of the USA has a rating of 2420. born in 1952 and at the age of 55 still hold his GM title. In the last 41 FIDE games played he has lost 2 rating points over the 7 years. While Alexander Onischuk GM of the USA has played 481 FIDE rated games in the passed 7 years and has gain 26 rating points. Not a lot of movement in the ratings. Yet when you check some of the internet players, they are gaining between 10 to 30 point per game! But the quick calculation only works if players are asked to state their rating before they play any games. Thus if a player states his rating is 1600 or 1800, his stats will show work out correctly in the calculation. There are more complex calculations that can be used to audit ratings. Most good players will gain between 3 to 5 rating points per game until they reach their peak, after witch there average gain will start to fall.
Another way to tell if an internet player is cheating is how they play and what they play. Most GMís will play the same openings over and over. They may have up to five or six different openings they use for each colour, and favour 2 or 4 of them. So if you see a player using all openings and playing like a master in every single game and never playing the same opening system regularly, then this is another clue of a cheater. One of the other traits chess programs have is they tend to go for material, rather than piece placement. They also do not guard against draws as well as a master would.
One of the ways an internet chess site can test players is by having them play against a chess program to test there chess ability. The 1st 5 to 10 games could be played against a chess program that could test a rating range from 1200 to master level. The advantage of this is that a cheater would have to play at a master level, and that is fine, let him, or a very good play who does not cheat, comes into the rating pool at there level. Lower rated players then do not need to lose 30+ rating points to a player rated 1200 in the pool, yet who is playing at an 1800 to 2400 level. For the ELO system to work well, new players need to be introduced at their playing level, as to keep the ratings in check. Just because a player is new, does not mean that they have to start at the bottom. One of the other main problems with the internet ELO system is that new players do not always get paired with players of there own strength, they may get 5 players under 1600, and then they have to work there way up the latter form there on in. Higher rated play do not like playing new lower rated player in case they lose, and suffer a rating lost of 20 to 30 points that will be hard to gain back if they are at there peak.
=====================
If you have any more comments or thoughts or ideas on this please post them here

WOTE


silhouet2003

1/15/2007
22:14:07
[ report this post ] you see

Message:
no more comments...



leo_london

1/16/2007
10:47:55
[ report this post ]

Message:
silhouet ..Probably because this debate belongs in the " chess related " forum ?
It started as a discussion about team captains enforcing the rules, it has moved on to cheating by the use of chess computers/engines.
I think the post by wote is very interesting and deserves a larger audience..why not copy/ paste and start a thread in chess related..I am sure this will bring many responses, even from 2000+ players.

rallyvincent 240 ( +1 | -1 )
Just a few comments... >>>>Very few players will obtain an ELO rating above 1800 in their 1st year. The rating system is mathematical, and has been used to rate players since the early 1970ís The system can even be used in retrograde to get the rating performance of players as far back as records will aloud.<<<<

How many RATED games does a player play OTB in one year, and how many can he play in the internet? Just look at Gothicgirl. More games = more rating points that can be gained.


>>>>Most people new to chess, even if they played a bit of chess at a younger age, or causal chess form time to time, will not obtain a ELO chess rating above 1600 - in there 1st year.<<<<

People that start playing in the internet, especially above the age of 30, already have experience in playing chess, which they often started with as teens.

>>>>In the last 41 FIDE games played he has lost 2 rating points over the 7 years. While Alexander Onischuk GM of the USA has played 481 FIDE rated games in the passed 7 years and has gain 26 rating points. Not a lot of movement in the ratings.<<<<

But of course. But they already HAVE a rating, while stronger players, starting with a 1200 rating, naturally would gain more points until they reach the rating range that reflects their playing strength.

>>>>Most GMís will play the same openings over and over. They may have up to five or six different openings they use for each colour, and favour 2 or 4 of them. So if you see a player using all openings and playing like a master in every single game and never playing the same opening system regularly, then this is another clue of a cheater.<<<<

GM's are playing FOR MONEY and REAL LIFE RATINGS. Here, everybody play for the fun, and the internet is a good place to try things that nobody would play in a tournament. What better place to play Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, just for fun?

On a sidenote - I cannot see why anybody should cheat here. What could be the reason? There are no prizes, nothing to be gained, no Golden Globe for best new appearence. And BTW, accusing a group of cheating without having proof, just for the reason of their high rating, does sound like someone is green with envy to me...
I do not consider it the behaviour of a good sportsman!
wote 334 ( +1 | -1 )
"How many RATED games does a player play OTB in one year, and how many can he play in the internet? Just look at Gothicgirl. More games = more rating points that can be gained."
How speed games can a club player play, 1000's Rated games in one year anywere for 1-6 a week, but it does not matter how many games you play, but how long youhave been playing chess, Gothicgirl should be a master buy now is you based it on how many games you play. it's more on the understanding of chess.
"People that start playing in the internet, especially above the age of 30, already have experience in playing chess, which they often started with as teens."
I played as a child, at the age of 7, but playing chess is like playing the guitar or keyboards, you have to keep it up and play to stay good at it.

"On a sidenote - I cannot see why anybody should cheat here. What could be the reason? "

Thatís what gets me too! A sociologist could try to give us a clear answer to that question. But then why do people walk into schools and start shooting people for no reason, why do people hang out on the internet and post silly stuff on forums. Maybe itís the only way some people can get attention. Maybe some users justify cheating by using there chess programs for difficult positions, or maybe only for one move, and land up winning the game cause of that one move. But the fact is that there is hard evidence of cheating at chess on the internet AND THE GUY IN INDIAN THAT GOT CAUGHT CHEATING, GOT CAUGHT BECAUSE YOU CANíT CHEAT AT CHESS WITH OUT GETTING CAUGHT. Chess is a high end mathematical game. I knew a physics student who was just learning chess, and he was one of the few people I ever new that jumped to 1800 level in less than a year, it still took him about five years to reach master level. Iíve not played in about 10 years myself but I expect my rating will go up in due time. Any how what Iím saying is that if the internet followed the same rules as the chess world in regards to it rating system, and all the rules of play, it would make the internet more creditable, more attractive, and more viable for international play.
==================================
message from kingknot:
Hello, wote I read your article on cheaters ,I must say, quite interesting info. I don't understand alot of that rating process but I personally enjoy the game with all integrity intact, but it's unfortunate when one or more of your opponents are using such devices to obtain a certain victory for themselves.
The one , that really gets my crawl , is where the opponent makes one move and waits to the last momment before "Timeout" in play and repeats over and over as to try to rack up the victories. If u check that opponent's past game history u will see he's doing this in most of his games he has won were do to Timeout from his opponent early , just because they didn't want to play someone like that, stahling to the last moment.
Oh well, enough said , I just enjoy playing with integrity and try not to take this as a blow to my intellect when some one has whooped me like I didn't know what I was doing.
Thanks for sharing that article with me, I do like helpful info in spotting them.


ccmcacollister 604 ( +1 | -1 )
Great points ... Message:
from rallyvincent !
I think it is true that few players appearing on internet Chess sites will be truly beginners who are just playing their first few games. And many will have ratings already, elsewhere, often high ones. Usually you Can find evidence of prior high level play for many of them, if you have the wish to and know where to look at. I had 5 or so Master Ratings for Postal or online Corr Chess elsewhere before GK... & tho not playing as well now, still the GK rating system has not caught up with me, or with many players who simply do not play a lot of games. The provisional method
here tends to handicap players who do not play Lots of game; if they start of playing other "1200" players especially, since (A) many will Not really be 1200 players, as they themself are not, and (B) no matter how many 1200's you WIN vs
your rating is not going over 1600ish anyway, unless there's happens to also, and you benefit from it.
*****
I know a lot of players here at GK who are over 2000, but would not, nor would they have to Cheat by computer use to stay over that mark ... or much higher actually. They are often MAster or Expert in OTB. Or have other Expert+ Corr Chess ratings elsewhere. Also, like myself, many of them will have made their ratings on other sites BEFORE the time when ANY computer could acheive a 2000
rating in a Corr-type game. Back in the early 1980's for EG when some computers were just starting to play-off vs each other, or vs humans in tournaments; there were some dedicated programs with ratings 21-2200-ish , but purely in BLITZ play where they would excel. I have an FM friend who defeated HiTech, a Mainframe program, in the National Open
around that time. (HiTech-M.Blankenau / Accelerated Dragon) And he beat it TACTICALLY in addition.
***
The few players over 2000 here, whom I have had games with thusfar, did not seem to be using computers at all. Tho it is known that computers are now often used to generate lines for opening book publications, as well as individual players seeking to have greater knowlege of systems they play. And it would certainly be hard to seperate out such games that used that info, its true. One reason I have refrained from doing computer postmortums or pregame opening searches; the other big reason being, I ENJOY finding my own "improvements", even if sometimes they are only 'improvements?!' or TN's.
I must suppose many top players must enjoy finding their own new ideas as well. Tho pregame research is not disallowed, be it book or computer, as far as I know.
What IS irritating would be someone using a program to play the game as it unfolds.
For then if you were to make a TN or 'unusual' (aka possibly second-rate) move to get them "out of book" and out of their preparations; you would already be giving them an edge in doing THAT ... so for them to turn on a computer for moves, rather than grope along on their own, as you are doing to offer such a move, and
make a properly sporting contest of it ...really strikes me as about as dishonorable a venture as one might go into for a board game of matching wits.
And as suggested ... To what purpose?? To elevate the public perception of ones NIK ??
I know it probably is done, probably happens. I just hope it is not too often and not by too many. For honestly, to me that seems about the lamest thing I've ever
heard of . . . definately therapy territory imo. If it is something that someone Needs
to do anyway.
****************
Anyone out there who might be thinking or doing unfair computer playing ... I'd just like to say ... Why fake it? Just GET GOOD instead ! Because GK is the perfect place to DO THAT!
Here there is access to: Games of really very good players open to view, your opponents past games are visible, you're allowed access to online d-bases with every GM you ever heard of having games out there on the net to see. And all the TIME and Vacations you could ever need in order to make sure all your moves are the best that You can Make! So DO IT, for real. And you don't have to rationalize your achievements! I'll tell you something in truth ... It changes your whole life when there is something that you know You really put in your dues for, and then achived something. The kind of change and confidence that you cannot get from faking results. In fact, no matter how well one will try to cover up an untrue gain, they still Know inside, and This is the Thing of it; Having that "know" lurking inside does just the opposite ... it surfaces and deprives a person of confidence and drive
at the times its most needed ... just as things get to critical point.
The subconscious always knows what is real and if nothing IS real you are starving it of the food it lives on; and depriving your conscious mind of strengthening exercise it needs, all at the same time.
For what it's worth ... the better and most experienced players also know what it real or not if they chose to take the time to review a number of your games, rather than just seeing one. There are stylistic and technique markers in everyones games, including you and even computers, that most players will be unaware of until reaching a high level. But they are there. So it really doesnt fool anyone who IS really a good player. It doen't fool You, if you cheat or hedge in your games. It might fool some novice players ... Well great, is THAT Really what you are here to be doing with your time?!
Let's all try keeping above board and honorable in our games we play, and just maybe some of that will carry over and make this world, or at least this Net, this Site, a bit better place for all to be . . .
****
Just my thoughts on it. Thanks
}8-)
ccmcacollister 109 ( +1 | -1 )
Believe it or not ! ... I forgot to mention a couple things.
In that HiTech-Blankenau game, both were in the Expert section of the National Open, and believe that one was in Las Vegas that year. But cannot recall the year.
Blankenau went on to take First Expert in the event. HiTech went on to defeat GM Joel Lautier of France sometime in the next couple years (who went on to defeat GM Kasparov in a game!)
****
2) Once someone puts away the "silicon lobe" of their brain ... they immediately start to heal, and become a Real Chess player. They will be Amazed how much stronger their game, and analytical abilities, have become a year later. Once the "easy way" is abandoned, and the mind starts to recieve real use. Creativity should also rise. It's all there waiting for anyone who puts away their toys and
starts to play for real. As well as developing faith in theirselves and abilities! There
are times in life when no easy out exists. Are you preparing yourself to Succeed, or Fail, when it is reached ?
far1ey 12 ( +1 | -1 )
How do you catch someone using a computer program? Cross reference their moves with the computer program?
wote 6 ( +1 | -1 )
well said ccmcacollister, Thanks for your thoughts. :)
wote 30 ( +1 | -1 )
far1ey asked "How do you catch someone using a computer program? Cross reference their moves with the computer program?"
you can cross referance their moves, ther rating gain %, their rating win lost % ect. but it works a lot better if .... well read all the above post.
wote 30 ( +1 | -1 )
far1ey asked "How do you catch someone using a computer program? Cross reference their moves with the computer program?"
you can cross referance their moves, ther rating gain %, their rating win lost % ect. but it works a lot better if .... well read all the above post.
djole73 85 ( +1 | -1 )
Hi all! I never cheat here, i play corespodence chess only for practice opennings. I am OTB player and my FIDE rating is 1960 and im improving :).
But i cheat on playchess.com in 5 mins. blitz games. Why? Because i want to play against stronger oponents. My "normal" rating on playchess.com is around 2100 so i use to take my notebook and run fritz and on the other side i play on my PC on internet. So i use two comps, they can't catch me :). When i pump up rating to 2400 - 2500 i start to play on my one until my rating dont go down and so on. Maybe this is immoral but i feel improvment in my play. I have two nicknames and i cheat only with one of them, with other i never use help. When i start play there (2 years) my rating without cheating was 1800 and now also witout cheating is 2100.
What you think about this, am i bad person?
wote 168 ( +1 | -1 )
"Message:
I never cheat here, i play corespodence chess only for practice opennings. I am OTB player and my FIDE rating is 1960 and im improving :).
But i cheat on playchess.com in 5 mins. blitz games. Why? Because i want to play against stronger oponents. My "normal" rating on playchess.com is around 2100 so i use to take my notebook and run fritz and on the other side i play on my PC on internet. So i use two comps, they can't catch me :). When i pump up rating to 2400 - 2500 i start to play on my one until my rating dont go down and so on. Maybe this is immoral but i feel improvment in my play. I have two nicknames and i cheat only with one of them, with other i never use help. When i start play there (2 years) my rating without cheating was 1800 and now also witout cheating is 2100.
What you think about this, am i bad person? "

I don't think you a bad person, but it sure helps to understand why anyone would cheat! I'm sure if i were the sysop, and knew you had two players and cross feranced you IP's i would be able to figer out that one of you players is doing somthing strange. Thus your caught, but, here's a few questions I have for you.
1. Your rating seems low here according to your fide rating. you would think that your rating would be a little higher in online chess or corespodence chess. So do you think other are cheating too?
2. what is you local rating? Hungary?
3. one of the reasons I subscribe here at GameKnot is they have a very good tracking system, and cheaters are easy to spot, and i don't think there are that many poeple that cheat on this site.
Would you resort to cheating here?


sough 49 ( +1 | -1 )
It seems harmless at first but realize you're playing opponents who are pouring their efforts into every game be it blitz or not. You're cheating THEM not just cheating. Besides, playchess has a full section dedicated to computer chess matches! Play as centaur or just as your engine there and test out a new opening or watch high level chess etc. You're not a bad person but just because you're not watching a human face over the board doesn't mean it's not affecting anyone.
wote 62 ( +1 | -1 )
"Message:
It seems harmless at first but realize you're playing opponents who are pouring their efforts into every game be it blitz or not. You're cheating THEM not just cheating. Besides, playchess has a full section dedicated to computer chess matches! Play as centaur or just as your engine there and test out a new opening or watch high level chess etc. You're not a bad person but just because you're not watching a human face over the board doesn't mean it's not affecting anyone.
"
dead on! if i wanted to play a computer, i'd play at home, on my own pc. I think playing other poeple is much more fun!
wschmidt 122 ( +1 | -1 )
Interesting thread.... I haven't really wanted to jump in, but after the last two posts....
*
djole73, after acknowledging that you cheat on another website and saying "maybe this is immoral" you ask, "Am I a bad person?" I would not presume to answer that question. However, I will say that if Playchess has a rule against computer use it is clear that the actions you described are unethical. Even if your motive for doing so is to improve your game by getting tougher competition later your cheating robs your opponent of victories or draws which were rightfully theirs. I hope you will reconsider your actions.
*
wote, you began this thread by posting a message in which you said, clearly in reference to the players at GK: "do you really believe that most of the 2000+ rated players don't use a program? I think that we are from another planet if we don't accept that fact" However, in your last post, you say, "one of the reasons I subscribe here at GameKnot is they have a very good tracking system, and cheaters are easy to spot, and i don't think there are that many poeple (sic) that cheat on this site. "
*
I don't see how the first quote squares with the second. Can you elaborate?
wote 30 ( +1 | -1 )
"do you really believe that most of the 2000+ rated players don't use a program? I think that we are from another planet if we don't accept that fact" was a comment and question asked to me in another post, and i said every after that
=================================
As many of you know ďUmakant SharmaĒ was caught ........
wschmidt 5 ( +1 | -1 )
ah, sorry, I misread your post. I stand corrected.
djole73 151 ( +1 | -1 )
Hi wote I will answer your questions:
1. Your rating seems low here according to your fide rating. you would think that your rating would be a little higher in online chess or corespodence chess. So do you think other are cheating too?

Like i sad i am OTB player and i dont care much for corr. chess. Once i start one official iccf corr. tournament and i dont finished them. I lost all my games on time out. However i found corr. chess wery good for practice openings because you can use books. So my rating is low because i am not really interested. I never setup the board, i never really analize the position. I really dont knew is somebody cheat here or not. It is impossible to figure out.

2. what is you local rating? Hungary?

I had national rating(KOMIR) 1926 until i dont get FIDE rating, now my national rating is equivalent with FIDE.

3. one of the reasons I subscribe here at GameKnot is they have a very good tracking system, and cheaters are easy to spot, and i don't think there are that many poeple that cheat on this site.
Would you resort to cheating here?

Personally i think this is bad reason for subscribing. You need to subscribe if you love corr. chess and you want to play for fun, you want to play a lot of games, you want to be member of club, team and so on. It is impossible to spot cheater.

Like i sad i dont cheat here and i will not cheat in future. I dont have reason for that.
wote 146 ( +1 | -1 )
djole -"It is impossible to spot cheater. "
And thatís the statement i disagree with. once someone starts to cheat , they must always cheat. The ELO scale is fairly reliable. for example... the chances of a 1400 player beating a 1600 player is 24% of the time. the same to true for a 1600 player beating a 1800 player. ... the chances of a 1400 player beating a 1800 player is 8% of the time. the same to true for a 1800 player beating a 2200 player. I would list the whole scale here but i have not had time to do that. So the flags are as follows. Players that cheat will have some or all the these Flags.
1) lots time outs and it's the only time they lose.
2) Win percentage does not add up (as above)
3) rating points per games/wins will be high 10 + ( Iíve seen some as high as 30+)
4) does not always play the same opening system.
5) when their games are analyzed and if they are under master level, you will see many master type moves.
6) A rating audit will not work out when timed out games are subtracted.
The problem is that the flags will not work in a ELO system that does not take into account experienced players that already have a rating of some kind else ware. But if this were to change, then the flags work much better. Gothgirl is a perfect example of an honest player!
rallyvincent 191 ( +1 | -1 )
Don't rely... ... on statistics. In theory, chances of a 1400 beating a 1600 rated player and an 1800 beating a 2000 rated player are identical - but a 1600 player is much more likely to make a vital mistake that looses the game instantly, while a 2000 player problably would not. A 1400 player can claim wins by opponent's 1600 mistake, while an 1800 player would have to outplay the 2000. Statistics can prove everything, if used properly, but that doesn't mean that the "proven" thing is actually true.

And the ratings here can only be seen relative to the strength of the GK player pool; if Kasparov would start to play here, he'd wipe the floor with every player here, and gain points in no time. That would not make him a cheater.

To 1) How will anybody gain a 2000+ rating with LOTS of timeouts?

To 3) If anybody plays against a player equal to his own rating, he will gain/lose 10 Elo Points here. It's a normal thing to gain 10 points. Maximum is 20 points, more can only be gained while having a provisional rating (first twenty games).

To 4) See above. Nothing more boring then playing just three openings over and over. Internet is the place for trying out different things.

To 5) Would work only if that player has enough games to see that he's not a new entry on the way up to his usual level. (Again - new player Kasparov would make master moves in his first game as a 1200.( You would need a filter for that.

And - more important - if a cheater would, as you said, have to cheat always, then he would not be rated under 2000, so point five would only be useful to catch cheaters that cheat once in a while.

Sorry, wote, but I am not convinced of your flag system.

Rally V.
bucklehead 223 ( +1 | -1 )
There are a lot of assumptions there, wote I think your picture of the basic cheater is probably wrong, wote , because it seems to assume a person with little practical chess knowledge but a keen appreciation of the Elo system. Let me explain:

In the case of #1 and #6, above, you assume there's a correlation between slow, move-at-the-last minute players. This is pure speculation. Indeed, I'm sure there are a fair number of such players toiling away well below 1800.

Regarding #2, I see your point BUT this may only normalize over a large number of games; and even then, it would hardly be dispositive.

#3 is a mystery to me. Of course, the games which take place during the provisional period are all over the map in terms of ratings gain/loss; but if I challenged cyrano to a game (a ratings-point difference of more than 700 points, God help me) and won, I'd only gain 19.6 Elo points.

#4 assumes that the cheating player is an idiot, or someone with no chess knowledge. Most of us, from long experience, have preferences about the types of games we like to play. If I were to start using a computer, would I really bother to consult it after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 ? Hardly--I'd play 2...Nf6 without thinking, and let the computer kick in only when I had a question of how to move. This is probably even more true for those cheaters who use a computer at blitz or standard-time chess. Who's going to slavishly follow the computer at move 2?

As far as #5 is concerned, I'd like to see someone identify a "master type move." I've been known to have the occasional insight, but more frequently I may make the correct move for the wrong reasons (even more frequently, I simply make the wrong move). That being said, I think we've all had the experience of playing someone who seems much stronger than their rating would suggest.

Look, if you ask me, I bet there are a lot of cheaters here, and on pretty much every chess site out there. I just think that there's not going to be an easy way to identify them, certainly not one involving fairly arbitrary "flags."
djole73 197 ( +1 | -1 )
Look wote, problem is much deeper than you think. All this internet chess is so unofficial. You dont knew my real name, you dont knew am i male or female, am i little boy or old man so how you can knew am i cheat or not? When i go to OTB tournament there is arbiter, organizer, my club mates and they knew me, they knew my possibilitis. Also i play with my real name so my opnnents can look after my statistics on FIDE web site. It is impossible to cheat. You can try of course like indian guy but it is stupid, they will caught you. Just imagine: i start to beat IMs and GMs with my 1960 elo, funny. I will be suspect imidieatly.
On the other side here on internet you can be what you like to be. Yo can write in your profile what you like, you can upload picture what you like. And of course here you can be suspect also but the difference is that here you can prove nothing.
Once i played(on some other turn based ches server) with some guy two games and i beat him in first 20 moves both games. I play for a long period and i can see when somebody dont have a clue about chess. I saw this guy absolutly dont understand the game. But that was ok he sad he is novice, beginer who want to improve. After just two weeks we played again and he destroyed me!!! He smash me in some 25-30 moves. And then he ask me in chat window "so what you think, am i improve". Idiot. To understand chess you need years and years not few weeks. I knew he is cheater but what can i do i cant prove that, nobody can prove someone is a cheater. But i dont care.
If you want to play real chess, with humans not comps. you better go to your local chess club. And try tournaments where ewerybody play from his head not from books, databases, generate moves with Fritz or ask friend for a help and so on.
I have a lot of clubmates and they played corr. chess also but stop because of chess software expansion.
sough 85 ( +1 | -1 )
djole You give a fairly good explaination of Why cheating occurs but it doesn't make it right. If you want a near guarantee that your oppenent isn't cheating, then over the board is the best way to go, I agree, but it doesn't give you free reign to cheat online.

"And then he ask me in chat window "so what you think, am i improve". Idiot."

You're doing the same thing pretty much when you cheat.



One CAN cheat online, of course. It's not just that you're cheating an online chess game. You're taking the enjoyment out of chess when after many games you leave your opponent wondering if he was robbed or set against unfair or unsurmountable odds. Maybe you're next opponent will be discouraged and quit playing. Maybe another will become jaded and start cheating too. Sorry to sound preachy but it's just wrong!
wote 80 ( +1 | -1 )
Yes exactly Sough! But here is the kicker!!! I still think itís not hard to spot cheaters, and if enough of the honest players, which by the way are easier to spot than cheaters, just ignore the cheaters and do not play them, the cheats have no one to play.

I really donít see how using a chess engine against other players improves your chess against humans! Youíre better off to use the chess engine to analyze your games. As Sough has pointed out, ďYou're taking the enjoyment out of chessĒ . All youíre doing is tossing a monkey wrench into the system, and other players have no way of understanding how they are improving at chess. Heck before you know it, you will have chess engines playing chess engines over the internet, and it will be who ever has the fastest computer wins, what fun is that?
ganstaman 60 ( +1 | -1 )
I don't like cheating, but I also like to think that most people here are honest. But what I mainly want to respond to is this:

"Heck before you know it, you will have chess engines playing chess engines over the internet, and it will be who ever has the fastest computer wins, what fun is that?"

This really just isn't true. If you want to know why, just read this well-written article: -> amici.iccf.com
wote 14 ( +1 | -1 )
ok... how about just...

"Heck before you know it, you will have chess engines playing chess engines over the internet"
djole73 104 ( +1 | -1 )
" "And then he ask me in chat window "so what you think, am i improve". Idiot."
You're doing the same thing pretty much when you cheat."



Well it is almost same but with difference i donít cheat to lie myself and others.



"Heck before you know it, you will have chess engines playing chess engines over the internet"



Almost thru. But i think you will have also strong corr. IMs and GMs who dont need chess prog. assistance.
They can beat Fritz (for now). They are so strong players, they donít care are they play against software or
human. Chess progs gives a lot to chess: you always have strong opponent at home, you can analyse your
games and so on. But also they take something, they take corr. chess (again NOT from strong corr. players)
and they made chess solving competitions (from newspaper) uninteresting. Today everybody can input
position in fritz and solve mate in 2, 3 or self, helpmate within seconds.
leo_london 172 ( +1 | -1 )
I think many are failing to appreciate that GK is fundamentaly a site to play online correspondence chess. Correspondence chess is an entirely different animal to OTB chess. The relative absence of time pressure and of psychological factors in CC offer the possibility to explore a position in full depth using all the latest ( perfectly acceptable ) means available. Seeing a CC game develop over months in all its logic and beauty is also very different from the usual OTB ``quickies''.
Good OTB players have strong nerves, an extraordinary memory, and the ability to concentrate well and to adapt quickly to changing situations on the board. Good CC players are extremely patient, hardworking and can analyze well. There is a tradeoff between intuition and analytical care. The less intuition a CC player has, the more he must work. Of course, both abilities are needed for any kind of chess, but to different extents. Huge data bases are now available to the CC player, one can spend hours analyzing one position, sleep on it, and see everything in a different light the next day. On GK we can also search through our opponents games, an advantage not available to the old " real " correspondence players. There is so much information available at our finger-tips ( without cheating ) that I am surprised to see anyone still making opening errors. I believe the differences between CC and OTB have been under-estimated, or maybe to put it another way, the difference between those who continually play a " true " CC type game and those who play OTB or some version of internet OTB are under-estimated.
Incidentaly, I was reading about a former Executive director of the US Chess federation...his CC rating was some 350 points higher than his OTB rating..I doubt anyone would accuse him of cheating.
sough 24 ( +1 | -1 )
When you play a game where your opponent thinks he's against a human opponent,and he's not, you're lying. I won't beat a dead horse though, I'll be moving on from this topic and everyone can do what they deem best.
wote 21 ( +1 | -1 )
"I was reading about a former Executive director of the US Chess federation...his CC rating was some 350 points higher than his OTB rating..I doubt anyone would accuse him of cheating."
Yes a fact worth looking at!
wote 92 ( +1 | -1 )
BTW From the FAQ
================================================

Q21: What is considered cheating? How to report cheaters?

A: It's quite simple -- you can not use anything besides your own brain, and you can not consult anyone besides yourself. That includes chess programs, chess engines or chess computers, your friends, colleagues etc. etc.. Chess books and game/move databases are allowed (as they are permitted in correspondence chess too). Nalimov endgame tablebases, or any other books/programs/tools that show the exact moves to make for a guaranteed win/draw from a given position on the board, are not permitted. Feel free to analyze your games with chess engines or discuss them with your friends after the game is over, but not while the game is still in progress. If you suspect someone is cheating, please contact webmaster with a formal complaint. Don't forget to include specific details of why you think someone is cheating.